Best Survival Cartridge
 

I know I'm stepping into a morass on this one, but what IS the best survival cartridge?

I vote for the .22LR, hands down.

Light
Cheapest both in gun and round
Accurate
Most common
Pistol and Rifle configurations
Does everything one needs it to

In addition, it has many configurations, including hot or sub-sonic charges, is not considered "scary" and would likely be the last weapon banned, cartridge so small and quiet it can go unnoticed, bullets are so deformed as to be untraceable, and so light you could carry a year's supply without notice.

As an additional plus, the weapons made for this cartridge lend themselves well to "survival" of all kinds, such as break-down backback rifles, belt-buckle pistols, and I understand the marksman pistol is the common backup for Paratroopers and SAR.

Since you can handle rabbits, deer, birds, and men with this modest bullet at the ranges one can see and safely shoot, it would seem this should be the foundation round.

If you're for the .22LR, you might add any reason why the universal and all-mods-available 10/22 wouldn't be the preferred delivery vehicle of this round.

If you wouldn't take the .22LR, why not and what round is best?

TS

Re: Best Survival Cartridge
 

First, you have to ask what are you trying to survive? It's very situation dependent.

If you are trying to fight off the Mutant Zombie hoardes, a .308 might be best. If you just survived a plane crash in the wilderness and have to make your way back to civilization, I agree that the .22 is probably the best for game getting, etc.

Re: Best Survival Cartridge
 

I agree on the .22LR
You can easily carry over 200 rounds on you and hardly
notice the extra weight.
If you aren't target shooting and only use the ammo when trying to kill
game, a few hundred rounds can last you years.

Peace
TLM

Re: Best Survival Cartridge
 

Just for the sake of argument...ahem...how about the 17 HMR?

...meets all the criteria that 22LR does...AND MORE:

light weight rifle or pistol
accurate
longer range potential
better in the wind
better ballistics
better penetration
more effective on any target
carry a bunch
relatively inexpensive

Yo se?

Re: Best Survival Cartridge
 

There is no one right answer for every possible situation. The best you can do is get the most you can afford of the round that is best suited to your circumstances and likely applications.

There are a few I really like in theory. .22lr is good, .22mag is much better. Then there are the teeny tiny .224 oddball centerfires that have the advantage of being reloadable. Reloading potential ain't all it could be with tiny bullets though, most improvised powders are not as powerful as modern smokeless so you won't get near the same specs. If you are stockpiling primers, bullets and powder then chances are you should convert them into useable bullets instead. Reloading in this case would mostly be a cost savings measure for ordinary times.

7.62x25 in particular has a lot of untapped potential. It is skinny enough and short enough to make a decent double action combat handgun but has enough zip and a heavy enough bullet to be interesting in a carbine. The pistol and carbine could share the same mags. It'll defeat light ballistic armor and a lot of cover, it also has enough energy to take deer or pig sized game with a well placed shot at close ranges. It is lightweight and again compact so the survivalist could carry a large ammount of it. Surplus 7.62x25 is currently cheap, available and can be had in sealed cans for longterm storage.

.30cal Carbine is skewed more to the, well, carbine side of things but Ruger makes a Blackhawk that shoots it so you could achieve a similar concept to the above with the Blackhawk and an M1.

Hunting is not a realistic expectation for SHTF survival. Nearly all game was wiped out in the Great Depression. In the 30's there was only 123 million people living in the US and a bit less than half of them were already farmers. Nowadays almost nobody is a farmer and there are over 320 million people living in the US. The population has been steadily increasing at well over 10% per decade for a very long time now. There won't be a stray cat or dog in sight. There is also no such thing as being "away from it all." People will leave the cities either because they want to kill all the animals left in out of the way places for food or because FEMA relocates them a la NOLA. What's more is that gangs and cartels now seek secluded areas for grow operations and drug labs. Wherever you live you will eventually get a visit from these guys.

http://www.filecabi.net/video/guttah.html

If SHTF after the NAFTA Superhighway has been completed it will be even worse.

Your realistic primary need for weapons will be to defend yourself. As far as food goes you should have some stores and be growing your own, but you already know that.

Anyway you can only count on what you put away for yourself so whatever you settle on buy plenty of ammo, mags and spare parts for it. Especially springs. They are a wear item in every gun and any gun is only ever as good as its springs. As far as using captured ammo goes, if you can capture the ammo that means you have already captured the gun, too, don't worry about it.

Now here's an oddity. If you have ever been to one then you have seen that there is never really a shortage of weapons in a warzone. I've often wondered where exactly it all comes from. Sure, when a country like America invades it brings with it untold hundreds of billions in equipment and supplies but this is true even in areas of low intensity conflict. In many areas it isn't exactly uncommon to see grenades and ammo just sort of laying around. I think of this when geardos complain that they can't think of any use for the grenade pockets on their newest vest or chest rig. Obviously you can make use of smoke bombs, pepper grenades, flares, etc legally right now as a civilian. Beyond that just wait a while. If TSHTF you will eventually have grenades to fit in those pockets.

Best Survival Cartridge IS:
 

Re: Best Survival Cartridge IS:
 

It's hard to argue with that logic :D :D

Re: Best Survival Cartridge IS:
 

If you mean survival in the wilderness, .22 would seem to be a great choice. If you mean survival in the city, 9mm or 7.62x39 fit the bill.

Re: Best Survival Cartridge
 

Although the A-10 can carry a considerable weight of disposable stores, its primary built-in weapon is the 30 mm GAU-8/A AvengerGatling gun. One of the most powerful aircraft cannons ever flown, it fires large depleted uranium armor-piercing shells. In the original design, the rate of fire was selectable, 2100 rounds per minute in the low setting, or 4200 in the high setting.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-10_Thunderbolt_II

NOW THIS IS THE BEST CARTRIDGE AROUND. Can and DOES stop tanks regularly. And does a job on almost any OTHER type of person/vehicle out there. Ok, Ok, not a GREAT hunting round. Unless you are hunting armor.

Re: Best Survival Cartridge
 

I thought they quit making these rifles.

small rifle for distance big pistol for up close.

From a distance you may be able to finesse a shot to the eyeball of a Rhino with a small rifle.

Up close I need to get the intruder to back the heck off or die. Shear bullet weight , speed and diameter for the drop. Sawed off shot gun may be a good choice.

E-A

Re: Best Survival Cartridge
 

One of 2 choices - 30-06 OR .223

Re: Best Survival Cartridge
 

7.62x39 is way better than .223. :D

Re: Best Survival Cartridge
 

It's not even a question......


.....now who's gonna argue with me?????

Re: Best Survival Cartridge
 

Oh sure. For that matter why not the .577 Tyrannosaur. Ammo is hard to come by, but you can only shoot it once between hospital stays anyway.

Re: Best Survival Cartridge
 

22LR has my vote i dont intend on fighting a war and honestly if im attacked
i dont think i could hold of even a small number of people determined to get what i have no matter what cartridge i have.and i know for a fact anyone
who realy wanted to could take me out with a hunting rifle and i would never know they were there. so i see little reason to stock a lot of defensive gear.

BUT and i ask a question to vets or anyone else who has realy been under fire
I have not, only a "friendly fire" hunting expierience where 2 drongos armed with a 22lr and a 22 magnum started shooting at the feral goats i was hunting with bow and arrow they did not even see me, when i heard those bullets whizzing over my head and close to me I sat down behind the biggest tree close to me and waited for it to stop then retreated away from the danger.But i think I learned something from the expierience and it was that
I didnt give a rats*%$# what type of bullet it was it was a bullet and there
was plenty of them and they were close and i did not wish to be hit by
any of them.

would I be more brave at attacking a man armed only with a 22 ? i doubt it

sure a 22 is not a powerfull cartridge compared to others but a man shot
with one to a "non critical area" has a very good chance of dying without medical aid.

id much rather a clean death than a 3 day 22 inflicted gut rot.

there is such an array of 22 ammo if its not your favourite it should at least
be your first firearm.

Re: Best Survival Cartridge
 

Not in my opinion :bull-buddy-icon:

Re: Best Survival Cartridge
 

Can you prove it? :wink:

Re: Best Survival Cartridge
 

Saiga .308...:wink:

Re: Best Survival Cartridge
 

That was ridiculous!!!
I love it....
I want one.

No, seriously....I looked at some of the other .577 t-rex videos, thode guys in the video you posted were definately hamming it up....

watch this old guy, he leans in just right:


Btw, I bet this ain't no .22....

Re: Best Survival Cartridge
 

What is this tasty tidbit?

http://goldismoney.info/forums/attac...1&d=1197079832

E-A

Re: Best Survival Cartridge
 

How hot is this????:bear_wub::bear_wub:

Re: Best Survival Cartridge
 

Why do you feel you can't defend yourself?

I guess people watch too much tv or see too many movies and get the wrong idea, but shootouts are not your primary means of defense anyway. That puts both combatants on roughly equal footing, you want to heavily stack the odds in your favor which means lots of things like foreknowledge of an impending attack, physical barriers, boobytraps, area of effect weapons, etc. Shooting at badguys with personal firearms is generally something you do to mop up after all that, in case all that fails or if all your prepared defenses are completely bipassed. In real life everybody can and eventually will get caught by suprise by one thing or another.

The mark against cartridges below a certain power level, such as the .22lr, is that even though they are potentially lethal they just don't have the oomph to deal with other eventualities like cover, heavy clothes, armor, etc. Even 5.56 is marginal because of its poor performance against common materials like thick wood, concrete block and brick. Rational people won't like getting shot at with anything but it is a mistake to assume anti-socials are rational and will react in the same way.

Re: Best Survival Cartridge
 

REV127,
Whats your take on the 12 gauge?

Re: Best Survival Cartridge
 

A Tony Rumore converted Saiga in .308Win...also known as a TROMIX conversion...

Here's a couple of twelve gauges...:D

And another modeled by Mystri...:wink:

Re: Best Survival Cartridge
 

Dillon Minigun - .30 calibre 3000 rounds per minute (50 rounds per second):

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<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ODiSfBUMApA&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" height="355" width="425"></object>

Re: Best Survival Cartridge
 

Rev,
You been looking in my safe!

CZ-52 - PPS43 and LOADS of sealed ammo. Plus mags galore, armorer's kit for the CZ's and a spare parts gun for the PPS43.

Can't cover that little zippy round any better than that.

Re: Best Survival Cartridge
 

TS did specify "survival" cartridge.

Hunting may very well be a reliable option for most who are located rurally.
Not many people living rural these days.

In the 30's the deer in the Kaibab Natl Forest of Arizona died out. Not from poaching and over harvest, but from an unregulated herd that reached die-back levels. Actually TOO MANY Deer for the area to carry.

I suspect most people who have pretensions at survival will not make it out of the city. Even if they all do, they are very few in number. Do you really think Joe Average has a ranch/retreat setup? Think he has it functioning? Not bloody likely. Mostly old folks live in the country these days.

Pretty foolish to think you'll be able to "bug out and live off the land". Better have a lot more food than ammunition stored up. Good idea to load all your components up, as Rev127 mentioned. Your powder and primers for sure will store best as loaded ammunition. Hope you have lots more no matter what.

.223Rem loaded w/Sierra 77gr matchking will penetrate on big game. With the right barrel twist you can shoot 80 & 90 gr match bullets out to 600yds and get hits. With a Ciener conversion you can shoot .22lr ammo.

Why buy .22mag for $7 per 50 when you can shoot a .223 and reload your cases?

A .308Win is still about the most versatile and inherently accurate .30cal centerfire going.
Lots of people making AR-10s these days. The M1a is also a sporting rifle that can double as an accurate defense rifle. A Win 70 or Rem 700, even a Savage with stainless barrel and tactical scope & mount setup would be very versatile. A fluted stainless Varmint Special is a very fine gun, relatively light to carry, durable and flexible.

Buy a Lyman bullet mold, or maybe a Lee; or order a custom to your specs. Learn to cast bullets from wheelweights. All you need is a pot, a ladle your mold and a campstove. A moderate velocity lead bullet or roundball will take small game very reliably. A Lyman 310 tool or Lee/Lyman hand press with dies is a versatile rig to carry for reloading.

A .22lr pistol should be part of everyone's kit. Revolvers are nice for their ability to chamber anything from a CB cap up to a .22mag if you have the extra cylinder. Then again, you can buy some .22 short conversion kits for many autoloaders. The .22 short is a nice ctg for its mild report and accuracy at close range.

Sinclair Intl sells a neat gizmo if you are into maximum accuracy from your .22lr. Look for their gage-fixture that measures .22lr rim thickness. If you have a dial caliper, you attach this jig to one jaw and then measure and sort your cheap .22lr ammo by rim thickness. Does much to enable consistent accuracy. .22lr Match ammo being $8/50rds is expensive because of its uniformity. If you want tight groups, might be worth the $30 or so to see what you can do.

A good versatile centerfire rifle, capable of power and accuracy; augmented by an accurate shooting .22LR handgun would really enable a lot of possibilities.

I think anyone who is expecting the Mutant Zombie Hordes in their neighborhood has failed to observe the first rule of survivalism; Don't be where the fighting will be. But, each to their own.

Re: Best Survival Cartridge
 

If they're coming at once I'm still for the 22LR ;)
http://www.tacticalinc.com/ruger-102...num-p-571.html

Re: Best Survival Cartridge
 

I agree 100%. ....And I'm a well armed gun lover......you simply can't prepare for mad max days....there will be so many criminals that want your stuff....you will probably end up dead if it get's very bad......

That said - every family member needs a pistol and a rifle/shotgun...and enough ammo....don't go crazy on these things...concentrate on food/fuel/stuff to live on your own.

If I could only own 1 gun...12 ga shotgun....it can do everything. I just killed a 220 lb big strong deer at 100 yards with a 12ga slug - one shot - it did not go 20 feet.

A good pistol and a holster are far easier to carry around...but has very limited useful range.

Any gun is good enough....

Re: Best Survival Cartridge
 

I'm a huge CZ-52 fan, but wouldn't it be much better if you could get hollow-point bullets? It is great against armor and cover, but I think it would over-penetrate flesh (small wound channel).

A while back I looked into reloading and had a hard time finding any supplies. Does anyone here reload 7.62x25? Do you reload hollow-points?

Re: Best Survival Cartridge
 

Yes and no.

I use the 7.62x25 WITH FMJ because it's such a zippy round in such a small package.

I do reload hollow points for our .357 revolver's, which we have numerous examples of. But for the firearms that I use for shooting 7.62x25, I will stick with the ammo that's made for it.

Re: Best Survival Cartridge
 

The 12ga shotgun is one of the last guns I grab in a SHTF, or any shotgun for that matter. Scatter guns don't have the distance, capacity, conceal ability, ammo carry requirements or anything I'd want in a survival gun.

That said, I'd go with survival calibers.

-.22lr is a must, one rifle, one pistol and a thousands of rounds for them.
-assault type rifle (.223, 5.45x39, 7.62x39, 7.62x51/308)
-side arm (pick your favorite, I prefer 9mm but anything from a .380 or 9makarov to .45acp or anywhere in between will work)

For me it'd line up like this on the grab and go, in this order:
-Springfield XD9 service model pistol (9mm), carry gun so I should have it anyway
-SAR2 side folding AK74 type rifle in 5.45x39
-walther P22 pistol (.22lr)
-ruger 10/22 with side folding b.c. stock

Everyone has preferences but IMO you really need more than one caliber... I can't see having less than 3.

As far as me shunning the larger calibers for the 5.45x39 rifle... there isn't anything in the continuous 48 states I can't kill with that caliber. Maybe some Bison not withstanding, but I've never seen one in person and I bet a head shot would mess it up anyway... I stock lots of steel core ;)

Re: Best Survival Cartridge
 

In the City they are great with buckshot or 1000-grain deer slugs for breaching doors.

:dontknow:

Re: Best Survival Cartridge
 

Which brings us to the most important ? of all and the most ignored....
WHERE are you trying to survive?
city?...midwest suburbs?...
Or where I live, in Griz country....bear lion, wolverine and griz are only part of whats on the roster out here...a .22?:haha:
I was deer hunting this fall with a .308, and got surprized by a 400 lb black bear at 20 yards!...even the .308 felt REALLY really small.

Re: Best Survival Cartridge
 

30-06 for availability

Re: Best Survival Cartridge
 

just doing a bit of research trying to find out if the original 22 shorts and long
rifle used black powder as propelant pre 1900 (still dont know) but i found
this on the 22 amunition and thought it was applicable to this thread i was amazed to read how much the humble 22 was and is used for war, self defense and law enforcement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.22_Lon...Specifications

Re: Best Survival Cartridge
 

The 22 LR is probably the worst choice of any caliber for a survival cartridge. I would hands down recommend it to my worst enemy.

Re: Best Survival Cartridge
 

It's rediculas to choose just one weapon!
I have my eye on the New Winchester Model 70 chambered in 30-06 in either the Featherweight Deluxe or the Sporter Deluxe, coming out in June.
http://www.outdoorlife.com/article.jsp?ID=55170

Re: Best Survival Cartridge
 

Good point.
No bears or lions where I live, .22lr will work fine for the oodles of
squirrel and rabbit we have,If I get really desperate, a raccoon or a possum.

Re: Best Survival Cartridge
 

The .223 works for me. 7 pound carbine with ammo. Its accurate and effective to 200 yards. I live in a forest where a lightweight carbine is much easier to utilize in dense foliage and rough terrain. I don't need range. Where I am, deer are smaller, coyotes are the biggest natural predator. I guess, in theory at least you could drop an elk with a well placed .223 though that would definitely be a survival situation.

Re: Best Survival Cartridge
 

7.62x39 has so much more knock-down in a forest. If you don't need range you definately want to trade that jammer in for an AK.
:tongue_ma:

Re: Best Survival Cartridge
 

Well, my take is kind of the opposite of general opinion. Rather than being versatile I see the shotgun as being good but for specialized applications. A 12 gauge loaded with the right buckshot has massive stopping power, absolutely. It pays for this in several ways, though. It is ineffective against armor, the guns tend to run dry quickly so they aren't well suited to suppression fire or engaging multiple opponents in a complex and dynamic environment, ammo is very heavy and effective range is limited. All in all an intermediate caliber semi auto rifle is a better general purpose tool.

For those special applications though the 12 gauge is hard to beat. Currently a 12 gauge loaded with beanbag rounds, rubber shot or slugs is the closest thing we have to a phaser set on stun... an effective less than lethal weapon. Loaded with the right buckshot it will provide you with highly lethal defensive fire with much reduced concern for accidentally shooting through the badguy, through your wall and into your neighbor's house. 12 gauge flares open up a world of possibilities, some best left to your imagination. Pressed lead powder or other slugs are good for opening locks and that could be useful depending on what you want to do in there. Personally I'd usually lean towards a Fox Labs extraction grenade and let the badguys come out to me. There are a whole lot of other specialty loads available too, most of which are more imaginative than useful. Two that are harder to come by but have some promise for someone authorized to own them would be CS and explosive shells.

If I could find less than lethal shells and flares for it I would probably prefer the 20 gauge. Reduced ammo weight, reduced recoil and most of the power is a good combination.

Re: Best Survival Cartridge
 

The inane remarks just cascade here with abanadon:
".7.62x39 has so much more knock-down in a forest"
"Two that are harder to come by but have some promise for someone authorized to own them would be CS and explosive shells." (discussing 12 ga shotgun)

It is just damn funny to see what people think, or maybe don't consider.

Yeah, I am going to need tear gas, and to be able to fire a flash-bang projectile; and that low velocity, poorly accurate and non-versatile 7.62x39 is suddenly what I need because I am in "the woods". Guess I will be blasting through the oaks and pines to get those craftily hidden deer? Guess firing an accurate shot won't matter "in the woods"? (Not to an AK aficionado anyway, evidently!)

I wonder how many here live within 50 miles of a metro area?
I wonder how many have invested with self-sufficiency in mind?

If you don't live where you expect to be, unlikely you will get there. Even more unlikely you will have anticipated what you will need to successfully engage in the survivalist lifestyle. But let's not let fact interfere with opinion.

Re: Best Survival Cartridge
 

I vote its the one you have in your one hand that fits the gun in your other hand.

Re: Best Survival Cartridge
 

AK is better than .223 in woods, won't hit a twig or leaf and lose trajectory. Yeah, I know what money masters is gonna say, "AK never had any trajectory!" Ok, tell that to our boys coming home from iraq with new holes. I'm good friends with a few, I wonder why they pickup and carry AK's whenever they can :rolleyes_m: In the hands of a skilled shooter, they're quite capable.

Anyway, a good survival cartridge? No idea, probably depends on the gun. .30-06 packs a whallop though and you used to be able to get Lake City M2 Ball real cheap, sold the last of mine to Diogones.

With a lot of these questions, the answers are mixed because theres no real specific situation posed. Surviving out-and-about is different than surviving in your home, at work, etc. Pack the glock 24/7, pack the AK in trunk. A bolt action rifle in .30-06 with a really good scope would also work, and would be a little less conspicuous, but wouldn't have the firepower.

Either way, the best survival cartridge would really just be an array of common ones with guns to match. Right tool for the job :D